[Ict4d] Moving Network Research group meeting to Wednesday 17 June 2:30PM ICT4D meeting room
Alette Schoon
A.Schoon at ru.ac.za
Sun Jun 14 23:17:48 SAST 2015
Hi David
Yes that's better for me too.
Alette
Quoting David Johnson <djohnson at csir.co.za>:
> Hi all
>
> I only found out today that my kids are also off school on Monday 15
> June and I want to move the network research group meeting to
> Wednesday 17 June at the same time so I can take some leave tomorrow.
>
> Would this day and time work for everyone that wanted to attend?
>
>
>
> Thanks
> David
>
> ___________________________
>
> David Johnson
> Principal Researcher
> Networks and Media group
> Meraka, CSIR
> Adjunct Senior Lecturer
> ICT4D, Computer Science Department
> University of Cape Town
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:21 AM, David Johnson <djohnson at csir.co.za> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> Our next Network Research group meeting should be a pretty lively one.
>> We are going to be discussing this very interesting email thread we've
>> been having on
>>
>> - Is DTN dead
>> - How to make applications / TCP stacks / operating systems / servers
>> developing-world network friendly ... well that was my take on the
>> topic of the discsussion
>>
>> Alette Schoon has been having problems with uploads of audio/video
>> from hip-hop artists timing out over mobile networks which resonated
>> with some of our current discussions on poor performance of TCP on
>> certain operating systems ... so all this is tying together nicely
>>
>> Alette will be skyping in from Rhodes
>>
>> Any suggestions for a specific paper(s) to read - Melissa had some
>> interesting paper suggestions from Marshini Chetty ... I vote for "Why
>> is my internet slow?: making network speeds visible"
>>
>> All suggestions welcome
>>
>> David
>>
>> ___________________________
>>
>> David Johnson
>> Principal Researcher
>> Networks and Media group
>> Meraka, CSIR
>> Adjunct Senior Lecturer
>> ICT4D, Computer Science Department
>> University of Cape Town
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Alette Schoon <A.Schoon at ru.ac.za>
>> Date: Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 9:47 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ict4d] Fwd: Is DTN dead?
>> To: Thomas Reitmaier <treitmaier at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Melissa Densmore <melissa.r.densmore at gmail.com>, David Johnson
>> <djohnson at csir.co.za>, Marion Walton <the.marion.walton at gmail.com>,
>> Richard Maliwatu <richardmaliwatu at hotmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Very interesting, Thomas, but I'm afraid I have no idea what it means
>> and how this affects the upload. I somehow assumed that the internet
>> is totally immaterial, and that as your signal bounces around in
>> cyberspace it doesn't really matter where it goes, it's all the same
>> for the network. Hopefully you will enlighten me on Monday.
>>
>>
>> Quoting Thomas Reitmaier <treitmaier at gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Hi Alette,
>>> look at the following traceroute, which prints out at the steps (hops in
>>> networking speak) and time it takes in milliseconds for me to reach the
>>> servers of kasimp3.co.za from my internet access point at home. Don't worry
>>> too much about the various numbers, just focus on the domain names. Steps
>>> 1-3 show my home router and how it is connected to apartment complex's
>>> internet connection. In Steps 4 - 10, you'll notice that my apartment
>>> complex is connected to the internet through MTN business. All pretty
>>> standard so far. Then it gets interesting: The next hops (11) are in
>>> Amsterdam and (12-14) in Phoenix, Arizona (USA).
>>>
>>> » traceroute kasimp3.co.za
>>> traceroute to kasimp3.co.za (69.64.85.104), 64 hops max, 52 byte packets
>>> 1 10.0.0.4 (10.0.0.4) 1.731 ms 1.386 ms 1.112 ms
>>> 2 hotspot.albionnet.co.za (192.168.1.254) 4.193 ms 35.796 ms 15.092 ms
>>> 3 * * *
>>> 4 41.181.53.149 (41.181.53.149) 119.075 ms 169.156 ms 140.773 ms
>>> 5 ipc-recieve-tb-1a.mtnbusiness.net (41.181.53.150) 86.456 ms 24.188
>>> ms 16.527 ms
>>> 6 tb-dca-2.za--qux-i.za.mtnbusiness.net (66.8.11.186) 28.924 ms
>>> tb-dca-2.za--qux-a.za.mtnbusiness.net (41.181.184.28) 74.133 ms
>>> 32.935 ms
>>> 7 compj-cpt-1.mtnns.net (196.44.18.2) 23.149 ms 24.591 ms 12.113 ms
>>> 8 ls-cr-2--tb-cr-1.uk-b.mtnns.net (196.44.31.113) 159.815 ms 196.263
>>> ms 168.846 ms
>>> 9 am-cr-1.nl--ls-cr-2.uk-a.mtnns.net (196.44.31.183) 182.104 ms 192.057
>>> ms 260.215 ms
>>> 10 am-tpr-1.nl--am-cr-1.nl-a.mtn.net (209.212.111.141) 194.530 ms
>>> 172.623 ms 213.045 ms
>>> 11 xe-4-1-0-135.edge5.amsterdam1.level3.net (212.72.41.89) 172.244 ms
>>> 201.675 ms 194.240 ms
>>> 12 ae-0-11.bar2.phoenix1.level3.net (4.69.148.114) 351.307 ms 325.790 ms
>>> *
>>> 13 aph-inc.dba.bar2.phoenix1.level3.net (4.28.82.158) 355.671 ms 335.862
>>> ms 516.751 ms
>>> 14 edge1_cr1.phx.codero.com (216.55.184.98) 370.878 ms 310.218 ms
>>> 303.125 ms
>>> 15 69.64.66.26 (69.64.66.26) 358.165 ms 342.422 ms 339.437 ms
>>> 16 kasimp3.co.za (69.64.85.104) 323.978 ms 395.737 ms 319.839 ms
>>>
>>>
>>> So in effect your participants are uploading their stuff to, and
>>> downloading it from, a datacenter in Arizona.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Alette Schoon <A.Schoon at ru.ac.za> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would love to write up something, Melissa, especially as our university
>>>> now recognizes ComSci conferences in its points system. CHI or AfriCHI
>>>> sound like the best option to get it out before anyone scoops me. Any
>>>> chance that we could have a 'How to write a ComSci conference paper'
>>>> workshop during my next visit in July? What do you think, Marion?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Quoting Melissa Densmore <melissa.r.densmore at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>> I love it - Alette you should write a paper on p2p pedestrian
>>>> networks! I
>>>>>
>>>>> think it's widely understood as something that happens, but there really
>>>>> isn't a lot written about it, and it's important that it gets documented
>>>>> as
>>>>> a phenomenon! It's related to some of the work on intermediaries (of
>>>>> which
>>>>> there is also not a lot), and as David mentioned there hasn't been a lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> work on DTNs recently. Would you be interested in writing up something
>>>>> for
>>>>> CHI2016 (due this september) or CSCW2017 (due probably May next
>>>>> year)? Or
>>>>> maybe ICTD2016 (due september?) or AfriCHI2016 (due 5 october)
>>>>>
>>>>> Also related - and in response to David's last email, I've been thinking
>>>>> for a while about a paper on appropriate design paradigms for
>>>>> applications
>>>>> to be developing-world-network friendly. I sort of think of it as POP3 vs
>>>>> AJAX mail. It's not that complicated - longer timeouts, no chatty
>>>>> mechanism, forgiving of network drops, but I'm not sure how to frame an
>>>>> investigation around it. Is the answer really to push everything to a
>>>>> gateway rather than getting software developers to be aware of parts of
>>>>> the
>>>>> Internet that aren't always on and bandwidth unlimited?
>>>>>
>>>>> Melissa
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 4:20 PM, Thomas Reitmaier <treitmaier at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Everyone for the interesting questions and discussions!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alette, I think it might be helpful if you could give a few more details
>>>>>> on the problems your participants are having. Off the top of my head,
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> questions will help us direct our discussions:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What types of phones are they using? And, if possible, what Operating
>>>>>> System version are they running?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What cell phone network are they using (e.g. MTN, vodacom)? I'm assuming
>>>>>> pre-paid? Are they purchasing data-bundles?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What type of network are they connecting to (e.g. 2G, 3G)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What service are they trying to upload to?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are they uploading through an App or through the web browser?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What type of content and file sizes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And please do let us know if you'd like to skype into our
>>>>>> meeting. I'd be
>>>>>> more than happy to set that up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 4:02 PM, David Johnson <djohnson at csir.co.za>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are great discussions for our next network research group
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> meeting - I'll schedule one for Monday 15 June now that our Masi trip
>>>>>>> will be moved to Friday 19 June.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been having some conversations about performance issues with some
>>>>>>> of my colleagues at CSIR on other devices like XBOX that don't like
>>>>>>> high-delay links and even androids apps that have issues ... I sense
>>>>>>> there is a lot to uncover at various layers of the stack to really
>>>>>>> understand why apps / various browser-based services perform poorly
>>>>>>> when the network isn't perfect .. see conversation below...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Kobus - that's interesting. I checked my Android TCP settings and
>>>>>>> the TCP receive window is fairly generous
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cat /proc/sys/net/core/rmem_max = 2,097,152 so basically 2MB ... this
>>>>>>> would mean on your 5 Mbps link the receive window of your android
>>>>>>> phone would only become a bottleneck when your delay is higher than
>>>>>>> about 4s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apps sometimes have their own statically defined internal flow
>>>>>>> control buffers that don't like high delay - for example you will
>>>>>>> notice ssh often has different performance to iperf with high delay
>>>>>>> nets - that's because its not very well tuned to high delay .. some of
>>>>>>> the phone apps are probably the same. In addition servers also don't
>>>>>>> like lots of hanging sockets (they consider a few seconds as a long
>>>>>>> time) and kick you off. This was something that was really frustrating
>>>>>>> in Zambia - servers would kick you off and you would have to keep
>>>>>>> retrying a download with no differential recovery - The TCP connection
>>>>>>> actually was surviving but the server threw you off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course your Microsoft box will suffer from the above + a TCP stack
>>>>>>> (I assume it is the same as Windows) not well tuned to the occasional
>>>>>>> high delay when the mesh is congested.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My sense is that every home and village could do with an intelligent
>>>>>>> box (connected to your 3G / ADSL ... modem) with the kind of TCP
>>>>>>> acceleration and network optimization we see in satellite modems +
>>>>>>> local cloud (like our VillageShare/owncloud) for sync which then
>>>>>>> intelligently syncs to your favourite cloud service like Dropbox when
>>>>>>> your net is not used + allows some level of priority on which folders
>>>>>>> must sync immediately (like work docs) or can wait for periods of low
>>>>>>> use (e.g. photos / videos etc.) + detecting OS queries for updates /
>>>>>>> virus updates triggering a sync to the intelligent box at low usage
>>>>>>> period (e.g. night) which then are synced to your device later.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something many people also don't know is the importance of throttling
>>>>>>> their outbound link to around 90% of the known capacity of the link.
>>>>>>> This prevents the outbound being driven to congestion when uploading
>>>>>>> (e.g. dropbox sync) and dropping ACKS for web / file downloads - which
>>>>>>> can have a massive impact on your incoming capacity. This is
>>>>>>> particularly vital on ADSL modems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there is a business opportunity in an intelligent box like the
>>>>>>> one above that will have a place in every home in places in the world
>>>>>>> where home connections are not fibre yet and the device could also be
>>>>>>> used at a rural village level in the case where connectivity is spread
>>>>>>> from a shared gateway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are products for windows e.g. SpeedConnect Internet Accelerator
>>>>>>> - http://www.cbs-soft.com/ - but it would make much more sense to have
>>>>>>> these features in a gateway
>>>>>>> ___________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> David Johnson
>>>>>>> Principal Researcher
>>>>>>> Networks and Media group
>>>>>>> Meraka, CSIR
>>>>>>> Adjunct Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>> ICT4D, Computer Science Department
>>>>>>> University of Cape Town
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Melissa Densmore
>>>>>>> <melissa.r.densmore at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> > which paper? the one that david sent?
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Actually - none of them really relate to why phones time out when you
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> > large uploads. Delay Tolerant Networking (DTN) for rural networks
>>>>>>> largely
>>>>>>> > refers to what geeks call a sneakernet approach - basically when
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>> > SD cards and flash drives to share files instead of email,
>>>>>>> cloud-based
>>>>>>> file
>>>>>>> > systems, etc. For you - this would probably be only useful in the
>>>>>>> context
>>>>>>> > of people going to media kiosks to get movies, media and software.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > For a paper on third-party kiosks, I would read:
>>>>>>> > Smyth, Thomas N., et al. "Where there's a will there's a way: mobile
>>>>>>> media
>>>>>>> > sharing in urban india." Proceedings of the SIGCHI
>>>>>>> Conference on Human
>>>>>>> > Factors in Computing Systems. ACM, 2010. (attached)
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > For this problem of stuff timing out, you might look at Marshini
>>>>>>> Chetty's
>>>>>>> > work on limited bandwidth. There's a couple of explanations - the
>>>>>>> phone
>>>>>>> > might be low on battery and suspend the network connection. They
>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> > poor network connectivity and just not be able to send a large file
>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>> > connection they have. They could be running out of airtime in the
>>>>>>> middle of
>>>>>>> > an upload. Perhaps they are running too many applications and the OS
>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>> > the upload process before it was finished. They could be uploading to
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> > website or server that is unfriendly to disconnections and timeouts -
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> > could be a server implementation problem or a problem more
>>>>>>> inherent to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> > communication protocol, such as the one David is documenting
>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> > his paper on why skype for windows doesn't work over satellite and
>>>>>>> skype for
>>>>>>> > unix/osx does.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > For Marshini's work:
>>>>>>> > Chetty, Marshini, et al. "You're capped: understanding the effects of
>>>>>>> > bandwidth caps on broadband use in the home." Proceedings of the
>>>>>>> SIGCHI
>>>>>>> > Conference on Human Factors in Computing Systems. ACM, 2012.
>>>>>>> > Chetty, Marshini, et al. "Who's hogging the bandwidth: the
>>>>>>> consequences
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> > revealing the invisible in the home." Proceedings of the SIGCHI
>>>>>>> Conference
>>>>>>> > on Human Factors in Computing Systems. ACM, 2010.
>>>>>>> > Chetty, Marshini, et al. "Why is my internet slow?: making network
>>>>>>> speeds
>>>>>>> > visible." Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human Factors in
>>>>>>> Computing
>>>>>>> > Systems. ACM, 2011.
>>>>>>> > Wyche, Susan P., et al. "Deliberate interactions: characterizing
>>>>>>> technology
>>>>>>> > use in Nairobi, Kenya." Proceedings of the SIGCHI Conference on Human
>>>>>>> > Factors in Computing Systems. ACM, 2010.
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Eminently discuss-able at the next Networking meeting!
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > Melissa
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 3:01 PM, Alette Schoon <A.Schoon at ru.ac.za>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Hi all
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> I tried to read the paper, but I'm afraid I did not understand much
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> >> Does this in any way relate to how people's phones time out
>>>>>>> when they
>>>>>>> try
>>>>>>> >> and upload large audio or video phones on the mobile internet?
>>>>>>> >> Because I'm trying to find some references that will
>>>>>>> explain why this
>>>>>>> >> happens among my hip hop artists in my study.
>>>>>>> >> Any explanations will be appreciated.
>>>>>>> >> All the best
>>>>>>> >> Alette
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> Quoting Melissa Densmore <mdensmore at cs.uct.ac.za>:
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>> I would hesitate to say "dead" but you are right, there hasn't been
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> >>> much work done recently in the space - pretty much since Keshav
>>>>>>> switched
>>>>>>> >>> over to environmental sensing. Even my Ghana Telemedicine Network
>>>>>>> stuff
>>>>>>> >>> was done back in 2008. The main difficulty I think we struggled
>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> >>> that it takes a ton of work to get a stable DTN going -
>>>>>>> and often by
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >>> time we got something working, mobile phones or DSL would
>>>>>>> arrive and
>>>>>>> >>> immediately displace our efforts. At the same time, it's been 10
>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> >>> and
>>>>>>> >>> some parts of Africa are still largely unconnected. I don't think
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >>> applicability of DTN has reduced - but the number of researchers
>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>> >>> to
>>>>>>> >>> leverage it in isolated places has greatly reduced. It's possible
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> >>> the
>>>>>>> >>> DTN reference architecture is simply too much overhead for rural
>>>>>>> >>> deployments, with no clear benefits (e.g.
>>>>>>> interoperability, etc) for
>>>>>>> >>> using
>>>>>>> >>> it. Tons of people use informal DTNs (flash drives, Netflix, media
>>>>>>> >>> kiosks)
>>>>>>> >>> without using a formal network architecture worthy of a paper.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Some other relevant papers:
>>>>>>> >>> Luk, Rowena, Melissa Ho, and Paul M. Aoki. "Asynchronous remote
>>>>>>> medical
>>>>>>> >>> consultation for Ghana." *Proceedings of the SIGCHI conference on
>>>>>>> human
>>>>>>> >>> factors in computing systems*. ACM, 2008.
>>>>>>> http://arxiv.org/pdf/0801.1927
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Ho, Melissa, and Kevin Fall. "Poster: Delay tolerant networking for
>>>>>>> >>> sensor
>>>>>>> >>> networks." *Proc. of IEEE Conference on Sensor and Ad Hoc
>>>>>>> Communications
>>>>>>> >>> and Networks*. 2004.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.59.3330&rep=rep1&type=pdf
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Digital Study Hall was also originally a DTN-based system, most
>>>>>>> recently
>>>>>>> >>> presented in 2012, but focus has shifted to questions of
>>>>>>> interaction
>>>>>>> >>> rather
>>>>>>> >>> than content delivery
>>>>>>> >>> Richard Anderson, Chad Robertson, Esha Nabi, Urvashi Sahni, and
>>>>>>> Tanuja
>>>>>>> >>> Setia. 2012. Facilitated video instruction in low resource schools.
>>>>>>> In
>>>>>>> >>> *Proceedings
>>>>>>> >>> of the Fifth International Conference on Information and
>>>>>>> Communication
>>>>>>> >>> Technologies and Development* (ICTD '12). ACM, New York, NY, USA,
>>>>>>> 2-12.
>>>>>>> >>> DOI=10.1145/2160673.2160675
>>>>>>> http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/2160673.2160675
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> There's also dtn stuff on SaamiNet (2009)
>>>>>>> >>> Doria, Avri, Maria Uden, and D. Pandey. "Providing connectivity to
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> >>> saami nomadic community." *generations* 1.2 (2009): 3.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> David - I would pose this question on the gaia mailing list, which
>>>>>>> >>> includes
>>>>>>> >>> a lot of the people that originally worked on the DTN architecture
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> >>> both
>>>>>>> >>> space and rural motivations.
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> Melissa
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 3:56 PM, David Johnson <djohnson at csir.co.za>
>>>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Hi all
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> One of my lectures in my Net4D honours modules is on the
>>>>>>> use of DTN
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> >>>> a connectivity option for poorly connected areas. The
>>>>>>> slides I have
>>>>>>> >>>> are mostly about historical work such as DakNet (2004)
>>>>>>> and KioskNet
>>>>>>> >>>> (2007)
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> My sense is that this research has mainly continued to have
>>>>>>> traction
>>>>>>> >>>> in the realm of Vehicular networks and space networks and that its
>>>>>>> no
>>>>>>> >>>> longer considered as a serious contender for rural/poorly
>>>>>>> connected
>>>>>>> >>>> regions ... there are some interesting new developments that mix
>>>>>>> >>>> social networks and delay tolerant networks - but they seem mostly
>>>>>>> >>>> like playful ideas than something to take seriously.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> Then you get weirdness like this 2014 paper from Disney on a DTN
>>>>>>> >>>> solution for mico-entrepeneurs using DTN-enabled
>>>>>>> projects (cinemas
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> >>>> a backpack) - the example being moving content between urban areas
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> >>>> Pretoria and an under-served ex-homeland North of Pretoria - there
>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>> >>>> not one African researcher on the paper ... I think I
>>>>>>> will use this
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> >>>> a prime example of what goes wrong when communities don't
>>>>>>> participate
>>>>>>> >>>> in the research process.
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> So DTN for rural/under-serviced areas - dead?
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>>> David Johnson
>>>>>>> >>>> Principal Researcher
>>>>>>> >>>> Networks and Media group
>>>>>>> >>>> Meraka, CSIR
>>>>>>> >>>> Adjunct Senior Lecturer
>>>>>>> >>>> ICT4D, Computer Science Department
>>>>>>> >>>> University of Cape Town
>>>>>>> >>>>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> >> ICT4D mailing list
>>>>>>> >> ICT4D at cs.uct.ac.za
>>>>>>> >> http://mailman.cs.uct.ac.za/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ict4d
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> > --
>>>>>>> > This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions,
>>>>>>> e-mail
>>>>>>> > legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard.
>>>>>>> > The full disclaimer details can be found at
>>>>>>> > http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html.
>>>>>>> >
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>>>>>>> > and is believed to be clean.
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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